On this episode of ‘Masters of Beauty,’ Dr. Anil Shah speaks to Jay Campbell, founder of TOT REVOLUTION (TESTOSTERONE OPTIMIZATION THERAPY). Jay Campbell is a globally recognized media personality who has written multiple international best selling books within the optimization healthcare space. The TOT Bible and The TRT MANual are the #1 5 STAR rated books of all time on Hormonal Optimization. His newest book, Living a Fully Optimized Life: How to Break Free from Sick Care Medicine Before it Kills YOU is THE blueprint guide teaching men and women how to reclaim their personal health! Jay is also the Founder of “TOT Revolution” and the “TOT Revolution and Optimized Life Podcasts”. Jay is also a champion male physique competitor who along with his wife Monica co-founded FabFitOver40.com, the #1 site on the web for people who want high quality and scientifically backed information on staying fit above 40. To learn more about Jay Campbell and TOT Revolution, visit his website:
Subscribe to his podcast at: https://www.totrevolution.com/podcast
Episode 10: Testosterone and the "Hyper Male" with TOT Revolution Founder Jay Campbell
This audio podcast has been transcribed using an automated service. Please forgive any typographic errors or other transcription flaws.
Dr. Shah:
I am super honored to have Jay on here. Jay Campbell is a four time international best selling author, founder of the Tio to re tot revolution, which for those of you don't know what Tio two is. It is a T testosterone optimization therapy and the tot revolution and the optimized life podcast, um, and a global evangelist of teaching men, women, and doctors. And I'm gonna put my hand up in that, cause you're going to be teaching me a lot today, how to optimize hormones, their life and their happiness. Um, and we're going to be coming from this from different perspectives. And, um, so we'll talk about different ways of doing that. Uh, Jay's no nonsense. He's authentic. He's in your face. Um, hopefully you don't get in my face or make me do like herpes or anything like that today. I'm not,
Jay Campbell:
That's actually an old bio I'm going to have to update that. I'm more of a spiritual person.
Dr. Shah:
Okay. I see that. Although I'm seeing like a tiger in the background, so I'm like our Panther
Jay Campbell:
Spiritual warrior. Don't, don't lose it, spiritual
Dr. Shah:
Warrior. Okay. And not fair to give the transparent scoop on hormone optimization. Okay. So, uh, so here we go. So Jay, uh, you've been involved with, uh, testosterone and optimization for testosterone. How did you first get started? Um,
Jay Campbell:
Well, so I was 29 years old. Uh, first off, uh, I appreciate being on your show today or your podcast. I appreciate the opportunity. I'm always humbled, honored and privileged whenever I get a chance to speak to people. So again, thank you for the opportunity. Uh, when I was 29 years old, I was kicked in the testicles playing basketball. Uh, I was an ex uh, basketball player in college. I played, I had a cup of coffee playing professionally overseas, and I was still six, seven years later. It continuing to play in very competitive adult men's leagues and it was kicked in, you know, just went down, ah, you know, whatever. And then about six to seven weeks later, I started really massively feeling run down. I went to my PPO doctor. It was just pure luck. And he, again, nothing's locked there, right. There was no coincidences in life, but he recommended me to go see an endocrinologist.
Jay Campbell:
Um, which was very strange at the time. This is back in 1999 when no one knew anything about testosterone. Right. Um, and so I did go to an endocrinologist again, recommended through me through my PVO medical plan. That was back when medical benefits actually work. And, um, I saw a guy who was a Harvard educated guy by the name of Dr. Raymond. Scroggs he, uh, he said, you know what, you're, this is weird. Let's run some S some hormone tests. He ran my testosterone in my free testosterone. And it came back that I had the levels of, you know, an 80 year old, uh hypogonadal uh, man, I was like two 30 or two 40. I don't remember. I have the lab work saved. And he said, look, I can put you on a dosage of therapeutic testosterone also, uh, with HCG and I can restart you and you'll be fine.
Jay Campbell:
And, you know, eight to 10 weeks, I was like, well, let me talk to my wife. And I, I just literally had been married, maybe six months, uh, went home. My wife was like, you know, dude, you're a smart guy. You know, I trust you. If you think it's going to be the right thing to do and let's do it. So I did. And, you know, fast forward give you a hundred thousand foot version. Um, I was, I felt absolutely amazing about 10 weeks later. And he was like, okay, well, I'm going to take you off now. I was like, oh no, you're not. So then from there, um, I, you know, I became a real nerd. I was always a studious person. Uh, even in my twenties, I have a molecular biology minor. Um, so I was always a dork. I was always on pub med, Medline, reading studies and learning stuff.
Jay Campbell:
Before I ever even touched testosterone, I was always reading stuff about supplements and ergogenic and all that stuff. And then, so once I started using testosterone, I was like, oh my God, I got to find this out. Now back then, again, 2000, 2001, there was nothing, right? Like you had to read like steroid underground handbooks or stuff for people that were dying in like the wasting communities. Um, and you know, one of my mentors is actually Nelson Vergel who wrote the book built to survive. And, uh, Nelson was very instrumental in me writing my first book all the way back in 2015. Um, but you know, it fast forward what happened is I just became a very, very studious person up testosterone. Um, and eventually some of the guys in my inner circle, I was in the, uh, digital automotive marketing space where like, you know, they always see me and they'd be like, dude, how do you look so amazing?
Jay Campbell:
You know, cause I, you know, I was aging backwards and I told people as you know, very, very non, no filter. I said, look, I use therapeutic testosterone. So it was always one of two ways if the person looked at me and was like, what the hell is the matter with you, bro? Are you on steroids? Or it was a guy, you know, intelligent like, wow, well, can you tell me more about it? So eventually I got to the point where some of the guys that I was in my circle with were influential people. And they're like, dude, you need to write a book about this because there's a lot of men that can benefit from this. Um, so I did to make a very long story short. I sent out, I created a white paper. I sent it out to Nelson, uh, bill Llewellyn.
Jay Campbell:
Who's now a business partner of mine. It's amazing how the world works. And I can't remember the other person. And then I also called Rick Collins, who was the world's foremost attorney still is now also a close friend of mine in the performance arena about steroids, testosterone, all that stuff. And I said, look as a non-practicing nonmedical licensed person. If I write a book from a lay perspective, you know, do I have any risk? I asked him that because my wife and I have and still do a residential real estate company. And so I didn't want any kind of blowback to come back at me to write a book about this as a non-doctor. And he told me very flat to my face. He was such a nice guy by then. He didn't know me from Adam. And he said, you know what? I read your white paper.
Jay Campbell:
It's really good, but I cannot indemnify you. You definitely have risks. There's always risks. You know, he just gave me the attorney perspective, which is all attorneys do. And I shelved it. I was like, you know what, not putting this book out there. Cool idea. But I'm not playing that game. I don't really want any kind of risk to me. Um, and thankfully two months later, Nelson Vergel who is in Venezuela at the time I originally sent him, the white paper emailed me in the middle of the night was like, I don't know who you are. Oh, he needs to talk. He's like, you know, this is amazing, blah blah. So then him and I spoke and he was like, I told him what Rick said. And he's like, dude, don't worry about Rick. Just being an attorney. I'm on panels with the DEA and the FDA. He's like this book needs to be in the hands of men. And then, you know, from their history has been amazing to me. I've been very blessed. I've obviously written for other books since then. I've met a lot of amazing people like yourself, doctors, researchers, and here we are here today. So, uh, you know, again, it's been, it's been an amazing journey for me
Dr. Shah:
And I think it's interesting, the world of biohacking, uh, that's kind of your, kind of, one of the forerunners of biohacking because you almost have these two branches of kind of this healthy living. Uh, you have physicians who actually believe it or not, I think are slow to the world of biohacking. Um, and usually waiting a little longer using more traditional therapies and you have biohackers and there's a whole bunch of biohackers. And I think that there's a couple of people who are sort of foundational biohackers and I'll put you up in that area. And it's definitely for the area of hormonal kind of augmentation that supplementation and kind of working in that area. You're gonna put yourself up there. Um, in other interesting observation they talked about is who's dying first, is it doctors or bodybuilders and believe it or not, a lot of times it's the physicians, because what we were doing was we were eating, um, low fat, high carb diets, um, which
Jay Campbell:
You're just following the code family, man.
Dr. Shah:
We follow the book. And if you look at that, I think bodybuilders and you're, I mean, um, and I don't think you've ever been like truly a body builder, but you've been there.
Jay Campbell:
Oh yeah. And physique. So yeah, I take care of myself. I have more muscle obviously, but yeah, no, I was never a bodybuilder, but I mean, I know a lot of those guys I've consulted with
Dr. Shah:
And you're, you're in that space, you're in that world and you live and breathe in that world. And so, um, we're most physicians don't live and breathe in that world. And if you're looking at that, if you ask a bodybuilder like, Hey, guess what, I want to lose 20 pounds, 30 pounds, you're going to, they're going to know, even from the nineties, they're going to know low carbs. You're going to work with fasting. You probably have to do some sort of teeth through there. Um, and so this has all been known for a long time and it's just disseminating this information to even physicians so that we know
Jay Campbell:
It's a really good point that you make, by the way, you know, your stop. And th the truth is, is there are a lot of physicians in your defense, um, like you, who I've worked with who I know, but they were kind of on the DL, right? Because the bottom line is, is like, you know, you guys are dependent on big pharma and the way that industry and that system works. And of course, as you know, too, there's no standard patient care model for hormone optimization.
Dr. Shah:
Um, I think we're treating, we're treating sickness and I think testosterone for a lot of patients, maybe it's sickness. But I think for a lot of times, it's actually it's wellness and it's optimization, which is a different thing. And I don't think there's really a model of medicine and how to treat optimization and say, Hey, guess what? I'm happy, but can I be happier? Can I be healthier?
Jay Campbell:
Right. I think it's coming. I think all the people that are in cash pay, um, you know, are starting to even market their services in that way. Because as you know, two peptides, that's a whole nother conversation, but peptides is the future of medicine. I mean, some of the, the, the, the novel stuff that's coming out is like radical. I mean, it's revolutionary, right? Like they're regrowing limbs with some of the stuff, you know, I have, again, because of my blessed ability to meet people and connect with people I now talk to on, on a daily basis, some of the world's best peptide chemists. Right. So I hear some of the stuff that's like, nobody knows about right now. And it's just, it's mind blowing what's coming. And, you know, that's why I continue to say that we really are on the verge of manifesting a golden age.
Jay Campbell:
It's just, are we going to be able to like all get along? Right. So that whole go along, get along thing where we can actually come together and build this because the technology is there. But the systems, as you have said, very accurately, which again, is big pharma AMA the modern medicine, the establishment, the brick and mortar, you know, archaic systems. They need to, I wouldn't say they need to be imploded, but they need to lessen the restrictions so that all of us have the ability to cloud source all of our information, right. Because that's where it's at. Right. Because all of us collectively have so much Intel. And if we can put that into the cloud and then share it, I'll do the it's, you know, it's unending what we can do
Dr. Shah:
For sure. Um, so I'm going to dive into some of your, uh, your knowledge on just kind of overall. Um, I'm going to start with a testosterone. We're going to dive into the hyper male area. So for testosterone, so someone comes in and they say, I want to eat some foods to kind of promote a testosterone healthy testosterone before I go into supplementation. Um, is there any foods you would want to avoid any food? You'd say, Hey, guess what? You need to get more of this in your diet. Cause I know you're a big fan of whole foods and stuff like that.
Jay Campbell:
Yeah. Great question. And I appreciate you asking that because I do really want people to know that I'm not immediately the clinical intervention route, right? I'm all about, as you said, living a fully optimized life. I mean, to give people who are watching this podcast who are not familiar with me, um, you know, a good understanding, um, there's one chapter of 12, there's typically 11 chapters in a bonus chapter on testosterone, right? So I'm not like Mr. Tot guy more on, um, or if I've been pigeonholed that way, I'm, I'm getting out of that. But it's a great question. Every person, male or female, it's not just about dudes as you know, women too, um, should look to the natural intervention or optimization means before starting out in the clinical intervention path. Because obviously when you start testosterone, as you know, it's for life, right, you're going to be replacing your body's natural production.
Jay Campbell:
And that's not a bad thing, right? Because we know that the war on our, from the environment, you know, on our biological systems is everywhere. We can't avoid it. You and I are talking on this screens right now and I'll wear my blue light blocking glasses. Right. Because I mean, seriously, we cannot avoid the modernization of today. And there are so many chemicals, so many particulates, there's all these things. But from a dietary standpoint, uh, you know, I think first you obviously have to have your body composition. You need to know if you are fat. Okay. And when I say fat, that really means you're, you're, you're metabolically disabled. You have some form of insulin resistance and you're usually inflamed. And the majority of people today who start any sort of optimization regimen, whether it's natural or through clinical intervention, if you're a highly inflamed, anything that you do, you're going to have side effects.
Dr. Shah:
Um, so for fat. So, uh, what's, what's your way of measuring fat and what's the, what's the number you like to see? Um, because as we get fatter, as we get older and are you, uh, are you a caliper guy? Are you a Dexis? What's your
Jay Campbell:
Awesome questions. So I do not. I'm not, you know, normally I would be a DEXA guy, but as you know, we have to account for obesity in the general population, right? So the DEXA algorithms now account for fat people, unfortunately. So it's really difficult with waterway and muscle mass to get an accurate means through DEXA or InBody right. Cause you can do either one of those. Um, so I personally would say that like, uh, option a, the lead standard would be a bod pod, right? A dunk test, the water osmotic, the osmotic pressure, or you said it, and very few people say this, but if you get a professional who knows how to take an 11 site caliber method or measurement, and I do, I was trained a long time. You went how to do that. You'll get a really good, accurate reading, especially with this real fat, right? Because some people are muscular, but they hold the fat underneath their muscles. So that skin caliper test is going to do a really good job of evaluating, like where they're fat, whether or not fat.
Dr. Shah:
That's a great
Jay Campbell:
Idea, but the answer to you too, because it's a great question is I think if you're under, if you're under 15% as a man, I don't think you're going to be that inflamed. When you get into the 15 to 20 to 20 plus percent, anything you do, you have to account for inflammation. And I, you know, I, I want to say this. Um, and this is by the way, a very cut, cutting edge. You're asking the right questions. Um, any man who starts to Stasia regardless of the delivery system, if you're a fat inflamed and you are not changing your lifestyle, right, you're drinking too much alcohol, you're eating pizza, you're drinking, whatever it's laced with sugar, you inject testosterone or rub testosterone and your skin, your body is going to have an inflammatory response to that agent. And you are going to have side effects that you are going to assume are due to high estrogen. It's not high estrogen. Estrogen is a very pleiotropic hormone, right? We take testosterone. We want more estrogen. There are so many people confused about the subject, you know, and again, I don't want to be all over the place on tangents, but this is another reason why, unless there are very, very specific clinical needs necessary in advance of starting testosterone. You should never block estrogen. You cause so many downstream second and third order of facts, negative
Dr. Shah:
Taste inhibitors, things of that nature.
Jay Campbell:
Yeah. I mean so many doctors out there in north America today just have these cookie cutter templatized versions of testosterone optimization, which is, you know, testosterone, HCG or clomiphene, and then an AI. And if you do that stop, you're putting all these chemicals into your body and you have no way to isolate what is doing what in the endocrine system. So you have, you know, it's my opinion, obviously. And you know, I always point to people who are not, not as informed about this, but you know, go to testosterone, addiction.com and look at that site and look at all these poor people who stories and testimonials of what's happened to them, working with physicians who have no idea what they're doing. And obviously I never disparaged physicians. I love physicians. I wouldn't be where I'm at without great doctors. But, um, if you do not work with a doctor who has an experiential body of work, you are seriously playing Russian roulette.
Dr. Shah:
For sure. It's so hard with tea. Oh my God. Yeah.
Jay Campbell:
But then combine that with that people, right. Who don't take themselves and think testosterone is a panacea. I'm sorry. I swore I'm not swearing that.
Dr. Shah:
So, so, so that, that tells you that foundation, you have to build everything upon a foundation and that kind of leads more to, towards your book of saying, Hey, guess what fully optimized life. It's not a one, one shot solution. It's
Jay Campbell:
Three is literally a good question. And a good comment. Chapter three is the importance of being lean as you age. That's the name of the number of chapter. If you can get lean. And again, to me, lean is not Jay Campbell, shredded body fat level, but you know, 15% as a man below, you know, right around there. And of course, some guys in cold weather environments, Chicago, New York, wherever you're going to be a little bit fatter in the winter because it's just the way you're not, you're not going to be, I mean, pizza and being in cold and eating and family and all that, I get all that stuff, you know, but the reality is, is 15% is a good means for women. It's probably about 18 to 22%, as you know, you know, women have more fat from a childbearing purposes. So they have internal fat that you can't register. I always hear these people say, oh yeah, she was 7% body fat. I'm like, if she was 70% body fat, she would be literally laying on.
Dr. Shah:
He had no way for a women's 7%. Yeah. It's awesome. So, so getting there, we're talking about trying to get to that lower body fat percentage and foods. So kind of some of the foods too, to kind of optimize that because it's, there's a lot of controversy in diet. Um, so anything you say that would kind of really optimize life and, or, uh,
Jay Campbell:
Yeah, no, no great question. Um, and you already asked that originally and I appreciate it. Um, it just takes some times for me to get there. It's all good.
Dr. Shah:
So we'll make the circle. I was going to
Jay Campbell:
Be honest. So it's, it's the best question you can ask because the fourth chapter, right after that chapter is about metabolic flexibility. And I wish I could say I was smart enough to make up that term, but it was actually the great Charles Poliquin who died last year, uh, who is a great keynote, very legendary strength trainer and just his, uh, his, his handle, his strength sensei. He was just a brilliant guy. And he was actually attacked at the end of his life, by the social justice outrage mobs. Unfortunately, because he was such a guy that would just tell people to his face. He had no filter. He's kind of like me, but he used to say that there was no such thing as a perfect diet. Okay. And you know this right doc like online today, you have all these people saying, oh, the carnivore, the Quito, the low carb, if that dramatic rose the fasting, intermittent, fasting, all that stuff.
Jay Campbell:
I'm all about fasting. Right? I understand autophagy. I understand senescence. I love it. Right. Um, I wrote a book, the blowtorch diets all about fasting or optimizing fasting, but the truth is, is the human body needs to remain metabolically flexible at all times. What does that mean? It means that you should be able to consume whatever whenever, when your body has a unique, energetic demand for that form of carbohydrate fat or protein, for example, to make it simple, a bodybuilder who does not eat carbohydrates, doesn't understand why he should eat carbohydrates. Okay. Now sure. There are all these guys out there now. It's like, oh bro, I'm a bodybuilder and I'm ripped and I'm on all this stuff and I do keto. But the truth is is that if you're a bodybuilder, you want carbohydrates to replenish glycogen when you push it, you know, deplete it from training, intensely trained.
Jay Campbell:
Um, and you want also the carbohydrates to build muscle, which again is the same thing for, you know, this, uh, you know, lifting is far as hitting your anaerobic and your lactic acid threshold. So you want to be able to train intensely and carbohydrates will provide the fuel necessary to do that, to obviously to build muscle and also to replenish muscle. When you break it down from training in the exact same vein, a endurance athlete and ultra triathlon or triathlete may in fact use the ketogenic diet or a cyclical ketogenic diet because their body in long-term distance or, uh, you know, endurance activity can better run on ketones, which is again, free fatty acids for fuel. So you always want to, again, remain metabolically flexible depending on what you're doing in your life. So the original question you asked about foods to eat that will maximize natural testosterone production.
Jay Campbell:
So it's really hard for me to get any kind of foods. Um, it's all, again, it's still gonna come down to the person's body fat. There you go. A person is fat, inflamed, insulin resistant and eating, whatever, you know, or drinking alcohol or sugar or whatever. It doesn't matter what natural foods he's going to eat. He's not going to have any kind of like improved, um, testosterone function. I mean, you know, you could talk about specific forms of essential fatty acids increase Erik bionic acid formation, which is going to lead to higher free testosterone values. Um, you know, and I could give you a bunch of stuff. There's certain nuts. There's like sardines mackerel. There's a lot of things that you could eat that will elevate free test, but it comes down to your body, right? Like what kind of physical condition are you
Dr. Shah:
Anecdotally? Do you notice that that being effective? So people saying, Hey, guess what? I'm going to eat. Um, okay. Sardines, I'm going to have tons of nuts in my diet. Um, it's interesting that nuts and testosterone, but I won't go there. And then, um, so I'm going to eat as much as I can to kind of maximize my tea and my body fats low. Do you notice that people saying that's enough for some of them to reach their goals? So does that seem to be like, kind of, it's going to be a kind of a step below for some people or it's going to be different person to person
Jay Campbell:
Everyone's biochemically unique, right. So it's kind of hard to give you like a cookie cutter to say, like, if this guy eats a bunch of zinc and gets a bunch of magnesium and, uh, and sleeps, you know, eight hours a night and then also eats a ton of saturated fat or essential fatty acids and gets all the quote unquote natural supplements that are supposed to enhance testosterone, formation, free testosterone increasing, um, it still just comes down to that individual person. I would say this, um, and this is obviously more of a recent phenomenon, but, uh, it's really, really hard now. Um, I use this in the book, um, you know, Dr. Robert coming to is one of my docs. He's in Dayton, Ohio. He has been prescribing hormones for 23 years, that brilliant guy, uh, he's written a couple books himself, but he says, right now his best statistic is this.
Jay Campbell:
He's like a person over the age of 50 attempting to remain optimized through natural means is less than 10%. Okay. Super. Yeah. Super type a person. Um, but you know, so anal retentive, like they measure everything, they know everything they don't ever poison their body. Someone under the age of 40 is about 15%. Right? So he's basically saying that the chemical war that is now being waged on us from just living in modern days, it's very difficult to remain naturally optimized. And then the other component, which I didn't mention is genetics. You have to be gifted genetically to remain naturally optimized in this day and age, again, due to the war on the environment. And as you know, these things, doc are killing people, sleep. I, if you brought a gun to my head, it would be my guess that the average person under the age of 40 today in north America guy or girl is hormonally inefficient. It's due to lack of polyphasic sleep. These things are destroying sleep cycles.
Dr. Shah:
I believe it, I believe it. And that's a whole, a whole nother can, um, some of the Zino estrogen. So you're talking about the war on the environment. Are there any other things aside from kind of, um, uh, any hidden sources? So someone says I'm coming in, where am I getting all these, um, Xeno estrogens, those fake estrogens, um, anything you say, okay, you have to eliminate these things, just eliminate these from your life as much as you can. And you're going to be, um, again, easier to hormonally optimized.
Jay Campbell:
So I just did a podcast, not a podcast, but a premium webinar with Dr. Anthony, Jay, the guy that wrote the book estro generation. And we talk about this all the time. Um, probably the number one place that people are getting crushed is in their shower. So if you do not have a high-end charcoal filter and you don't have to go buy one of those, you know, $5,000 apparatuses, but you do need to have a really good, uh, you know, shower, uh, hat, master head, and then you can get, you know, these charcoal filters. But I would assume that besides the water, you know, again, in a big coastal populations that are coming through that you also have all of the hygiene, shampoos and stuff, and, you know, guys love do you ship that smells good? Like it makes me smell masculine.
Dr. Shah:
Old spice
Jay Campbell:
Is so bad. There's so much garbage in the Johnson and Johnson products. I mean, again, it sounds crazy, and it's cliche, you hear it now so much, but it really is difficult to avoid all this stuff. And so that's why I ended up saying that, you know, the biggest hammer in the tool belt is testosterone, Metformin, thyroid, and fasting, right? I mean, those four things, if you do those four things, and of course, knowing that you modulate everything else, right. Your lifestyle, you can pretty much stay optimized and still be bombarded.
Dr. Shah:
So, okay, cool. The shower's a new one. I have not heard of that. So that's a good one. Um, okay. So kind of working with those. Um, and so, uh, do you think there's a difference would kind of just kind of focused on the fat a little bit, visceral fat versus kind of, you know, more that superficial fat, do you think there's a difference in kind of optimizing someone who's has more visceral fat versus superficial fat, or you think it's kind of, they're all kind of playing to the same field?
Jay Campbell:
Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. I mean, again, it comes down to the person's genetics and how they're prone to store body fat. Um, obviously visceral is the most inflammatory form of fat, but you know, if you're going to measure both of them, if a person's fat, um, I mean, it's a good question. If a person was an athlete, right. And they have a lot of previously established muscle and then they just let themselves go. Those types of people, most likely are not going to be as at risk if they proceed to get back into shape and doll themselves. And as someone who never built it and then has, you know, visceral fat, that's just been there a long time. Cause then that fat, as you know, is what's going to lead to disease states. So over time, I would say that the athlete who's let themselves go is not as much risk as someone who's never built any muscle and has half has that really nasty inflamed, visceral fat. That's been literally, you know, pockets that have been sitting there. The yellow fat that's been there for 20 plus years, but I mean, it, you know, fat is fat to me.
Dr. Shah:
Okay. And so, you know, so someone's working with all these sorts of things and they say, okay, how do I know? And, um, I know this is basic question you, but our audience would probably be super helpful. How do I know I have testosterone deficiency? Are there any signs I should know that, um, I have that deficiency. Yeah.
Jay Campbell:
So that's a great question. To be honest with you about the number one side effect or symptom of a deficiency is brain fog. And that would obviously, as you know, present at midday sometimes like right around now, you know, well, not for you guys cause it's later, but for me, like, you know, between one 30 and three o'clock, you've eaten lunch. It's not like a car bomb where you're having insulin, but you just literally feel like you want to go home and take a nap. You're just like, dude, I can't make it to this day. And so as what most people do, right. They crush an Adderall, they take caffeine, they go get a gigantic, uh, you know, coffee or something. Um, but that's the number one symptom where you literally just have no energy and you just get it's crushing, excuse me, sneeze. Excuse me.
Jay Campbell:
Um, but yeah, so brain fog is usually the number one symptom and that's why most guys never get treated because they go to a physician who instantly wants to, uh, you know, write them an SSRI because a lot of guys also will say, I'm depressed doc, you know, or I just don't feel like I used to be right. So they get an SSRI and then sometimes they'll be like, yeah. And I'm also having erectile dysfunction or I can't get it up when I want, so then boom, you get the biographer Levitra, Cialis prescribed to, and they never look at the testosterone levels, but uh, normally it is brain fog. Um, the next one would definitely just be a lack of morning erection, which as you know, you know, could just be really, really low free testosterone. I mean, again, if you're obese, the one, you know, it's the whole chicken and egg controversy, right.
Jay Campbell:
Is testosterone is the, is the testosterone deficiency caused by the insulin resistance or the insulin resistance, you know, causing the testosterone deficiency. I mean, you don't really know, but to me it's a circle, right? That's why also when someone looks at their testosterone, you also have to evaluate your thyroid because I've seen a lot of guys who, when they got their thyroid kicking again and again, when you're insulin resistant, you have your thyroid is going to be malfunction, right. But when you get that kicking again, that sometimes will improve testosterone. So everything to me is synergistic and a circle. And if one part of the tracks is off or broken, you're going to probably find systemically that everything else is getting broken too in the cycle.
Dr. Shah:
Okay. So then, um, and other signs, would you notice that some of these men might notice, um, uh, th so it's not always as obvious, so they might not have like gynecomastia, they might not have, it might be subtle changes in muscle mass. It might be subtle changes in that. So that's a good point. So they decide to get measured. Is there, uh, again, it varies from lab to lab. I know that is, is there a lab you lab you trust or as long as you know, what the parameters for each lab, and is there a level you'd like to see things out or is that going to vary again from lab to lab and person to person?
Jay Campbell:
No, it's a great question. So yesterday, Dr. Abraham Morgan Taylor, who's also a friend of mine through the internet. We've never actually met in person. He posted on Twitter, really awesome thing. He does this now with clinicians and, you know, he posts like w you know, here's the situation? What do you do? And so sometimes he he's like, he's totally cool with me writing in because a lot of these guys have no clue. And I usually will just write in something very, um, you know, sardonic or a cervic or whatever. But like yesterday it was, the guy has a high free tea, but all the symptoms, what do you do? It was a great question. But so to your question, it really is always a symptomatic evaluation, much more than it is a lab measurement numbers. Now that said, I realized that you guys were playing a game.
Jay Campbell:
And if it's for insurance subrogation and somebody who's aging, you know, 45, 50 plus, and they're, they want to build their insurance and I get it right. They don't want to pay out of pocket. You're playing a really, you're walking a tight rope because this is what Dr. Neil, well, this is what Dr. Neil Rouget says. And obviously he's also a close personal friend at that number podcasts with him. And he's to be the world's foremost training doctor and expert legal witness on helping doctors who get drawn up on state medical licensing boards. And the reality is this, if you are prescribing testosterone to a man or a woman, you don't get any hormones to either one, and you're doing it through insurance subrogation. You're basically a red bulls-eye. Yeah. Which by the way, doc is a force. I mean, I, I'm not a doc, so I can say this, but the fact that you guys are so hamstrung, when you know that you can help men and women so much, and yet insurance says, oh, no, you can't yet. And you guys face issues.
Dr. Shah:
Well, I, I'm kind of in the bleak with insurance that most insurance at this point right now is like disaster insurance. But if you get really sick, like you need insurance, but if you want to be healthy, it's almost better to be out of pocket. And so, and so changing things around. So in the end, the deductible, my deductible, I'm not sure what your deductible is. Um, my deductible was like $5,000,
Jay Campbell:
5,500. Right.
Dr. Shah:
So if I'm doing anything, I used to do it out of pocket anyway. So if it's elective it's,
Jay Campbell:
But that's what I'm saying. But like, you know, and obviously we see we speak from the same hymnal, but if you're a 60 year old man, right. And you've paid all this money, you've been a company, man, wage slave your whole life, and you've paid all this money and you're now like dying. And you just want to be like, be able to get insurance, you know, your testosterone, your insurance, and you can't because of the games that you're playing and you know, that the insurance is playing with you. I mean, probably the whole thing is a sham.
Dr. Shah:
Yeah. I would say, uh, yeah, it's a whole nother thing. Yeah. I, I, so I'm anti, like, I think the whole aspect of it is, and I think the insurance is really it's, it's, it's really for design, in my opinion. It's for
Jay Campbell:
Right. It's literally extortion too. It's like, it really only ever applies is if you're in that life-threatening accident, right. You have to be LifeFlight
Dr. Shah:
Or something tragic is going because the bill is so for that. Exactly. Um, so, so, so you get it measured and, um, you see someone that's like an expert in that, and you say, before I start testosterone therapy, are there any, are there any like over like Yoda, GNC, and there's tons of stuff out there,
Jay Campbell:
Every single one before you even go any further? I constantly post on my social media where I'm most influential is on Twitter. Those are all a joke. I mean, there is not a single natural supplement in the world and I've tested them. And I know very high level researchers have tested them. Um, you know, like the one I'll just use it. I don't care. I'm going to slam them new. Genics right. That's the number one selling testosterone.
Jay Campbell:
It is a complete and total scam. There is absolutely zero value. Now you both, we both know the there's a 40 per the placebo does work, right? Quantum physics tells us that we create our own reality bubble. So if a person is insistent, that does open him, then I'm sure he gets some benefit, but there is zero efficacy on any of those over the counter of testosterone, boosting pills, tablets, capsules, in actually in, uh, intervening from a standpoint that you notice anything other than a transient spike. And again, in my, my last book on testosterone, the Bible, and by the way, anybody who watches this, we send the book, my team will send you the book for free. It's just a PDF. We're not going to mail it to you. You can still buy it on Amazon in 2018 for four months. It was the number one men's health book. So it's a really awesome book. It's 600 pages, 780 science scientific citations, but we tested
Dr. Shah:
Every Fossum.
Jay Campbell:
Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So all they have to do is just send a email to contact@totrevolution.com and they'll get
Dr. Shah:
Cool. We'll put that into the show notes. Thank you for sure. Yep. Um, okay. So, okay. So we've, we've kind of walked into GNC. We walked out of DNC and now we have, so now we have to get we're thinking about therapy. Um, and so that point with therapy is there's so many ways to deliver it. Um, you know, we, we know a Barry bonds had supposedly did or not, you know, we have the clear and the tan, so we have, uh, lotions, we have orals, we have injectables and we have pallets. Um, and, uh, how it's, um, for some reason have become a lot of my patients. I don't do tea in my office and just talk about it and I could direct them to someone who specialized in this, um, tell us to become really, really like, uh, popular recently in the last two years.
Jay Campbell:
So let me, let me just talk about, you're asking, like, what are the best delivery systems that talk about them? Right. Okay. So, so I've changed my stance in the last two months on pellets and not because I've decided that I was wrong, but just because I've heard frack from members of our special forces who are in harm's way, and they are not, when traveling cannot take testosterone preparations in any capacity, they're at risk. So for people like that, and again, I recognize that now, and I, I always, uh, salute everyone who served this country. I'm, you know, I have a huge heart for those guys. I take care of them. I give them everything that I have ever done is free to them. All they have to do is ask, but I will only say that pellets are okay in positions like that, where you have no other form of deliberate system, but here's the other issue or not the other issue, but the always ongoing issue with balance.
Jay Campbell:
Um, the human body is not designed to handle a surgically incised, pellet. Okay. What ends up happening is a couple of things, but most importantly, and this is, again, going back to unique, biochemical individuality, we, as a species will cleave the testosterone, Esther as a pellet at different rates and speeds molecularly. So some people are going to be fast cleavers and other people fatter more inflamed, higher robotized. There's a million other things that you can insert in. There are not. So the problem with pellets is you're never going to get any kind of uniform delivery. Okay. Now, when you say that people are, uh, you know, becoming all into pellets, yes, that's true for a couple of reasons, the pellet company, you know, and I'm Berry and BioTeam, doesn't like that. I go out and say what I say, but I, I I've spoken with people.
Jay Campbell:
I can't read, I can't name who they are that we're going to buy their company. And, you know, they're a big, almost a billion dollar company. That's what their valuation is right now. Yeah. So they spend a lot of money on training physicians. They also do a great job of marketing. They're a really good company, obviously. Um, I've spoken, you know, to the guy that runs it, or, you know, he speaks at the doctor's conferences, which I always go to, which I'll be at AMG in, you know, November 1st weekend of November. And Tucson's always a great show. I love all those people. I never speak badly about any of their conferences. These guys do a great job. Um, but again, dude, okay, I'll give you this. So I have a desktop folder with pictures, for people who send me from their extrusions and from the factions and the asepsis, I've got pictures of sepsis from horrifyingly, bad surgical, appellate implants.
Jay Campbell:
So I always say there's better ways of skinning the cat. You know, if you have a pellet inserted and it's done okay, are you going to get optimization? Maybe? Okay. And again, I say maybe because again, the way it's delivered, it's never going to be uniform. The other thing, and this is something that most people don't know about pellets, which is very important and critical is, is that over time. And by the way, there's never been an actual legitimate evidence-based study done using pellets because the researchers, many of the androgen researchers are my friends. They know that you're not going to be able to replicate anything more than one time. So they don't do studies with pellets, but here's the thing. And this is a new field. People are becoming immune to the insertions. So if you're a guy has been on a pellet or a woman, a lot of women get pellets and they've been on for two or three years, bro.
Jay Campbell:
The body is going to start injecting it. And you're not going to have the same effect because of testosterone resistance syndrome, which we're not talking about today in this podcast, that will be something that will be coming into the world soon. Um, but essentially what that is, is a lot of the cross-linking from the androgen receptors and the estrogen receptors who are being blasted by the endocrine-disrupting chemicals. Um, so it's making testosterone actually at the cellular level, uh, less effective. So you're having that. So again, I don't recommend pellets. I do recommend one of two things. Okay. And that's obviously injections, which are the old, you know, 50 years in the making, you know, people have been doing it and obviously bodybuilding performance circles. And of course now therapeutic circles. And then recently for me, and now I've been doing this for about 17 months, um, scrotal cream.
Jay Campbell:
Now there is a study and you can find this on pod, Matt, I'll be happy to send it to you that the scrotum is eight times better absorption due to the permeability of the scrotal skin, right there at the base of the scrotum and where, you know, where the SAC and the testicles hit right in the morning. So the type of cream and a lot of guys screw this up, you cannot be using Andrew gel or any of these like low grade generic, low quality, low dosage, 10 milligram, five milligram gels. You got to use a 200 milligram per gram, compounded cream right there on the scrotum. And some guys twice a day, his best guy like me. I use it once a day. I use it in the morning after I shower. Um, to me I've been using it now for 17 months. And remember I was 1918 and a half year injector.
Jay Campbell:
Um, and I always said that injections were tried and true the best delivery system. I personally now think that the cream is better for sexual purposes because of the DHT spike from the cream right there. Now obviously some guys, if your percept, if you're a susceptible, you have the predisposition to baldness are male pattern baldness. It will speed the rate of shed at the molecular level. But, uh, you know, I don't give a about my hair. I mean, I actually did not. I'm not completely bald. I mean, I do. If I grow out, I'll have some hair, but uh, I just keep it low. It's just easier for me for maintenance standpoint, but uh, all things being equal, injections cream, uh, again on the scrotum, I do not think that cream outside of being on the scrotum is even close to being injected, to being as a fate, efficacious as injections, but on the scrotum, it's very close.
Jay Campbell:
Um, everything else is the same though, right? Like, uh, physical physiology, building muscle, being energetic, being strong, having awesome improved cognition, same. But you do get a little bit of heightened sexual increase or sexual function increase. And again, it's because of the increase in DHT from the testosterone right there. It's not like porn star. Wow. You know, like you're on PT 1 41. No, but you will feel a little bit better sexually with the cream than you will the injections. And I, and I always say this for men who have been in long-term monogamous relationships, the cream is noticeable when you first start using it because you're like, you know, what the hell is going on with me? I got Tesco animals. Right? Six more.
Dr. Shah:
So, um, DHT, that's going to be a big thing for our artists that a lot of our patients are like, concerned about hair. And uh, I had hair transplant. My wife actually did it for me. It wasn't a choice. It wasn't a choice for me. We do hair, but
Jay Campbell:
That's amazing.
Dr. Shah:
Oh, cool. Thank you. Um, and so, uh, obviously you're anti Propecia for, uh, its effects.
Jay Campbell:
No, that's a good question. I'm not really, I'm more, you know, like Dutasteride Finasteride all these things again. It's genetics. Some guys do horrible, you know, you've obviously heard of PFS and all that stuff, but then other people are perfectly, okay. I know men who've used a microdose of Dutasteride slash Finasteride. You know, I know they're separate, but you know, for 20 plus years with zero side effects, no sexual dysfunction, nothing. So again, we're all biochemically unique and I'm not going to come out here and say, dude, PFS is the worst thing ever. Right. Cause there are people out there that will go after you and say, Jesus Christ. It's killed my life. Yeah. So I mean, I do understand that, you know, there's a, there's always a time and a place for medications, even AI is I'm very anti AI. I do not think anyone should ever block their estrogen, but there is again, people out there that over aromatase, genetically and a micro dose, even though it's still not good, might be okay initially to change that body molecularly from a standpoint of like to let them know that you're going to be making more testosterone and more estrogen.
Dr. Shah:
Yeah. Okay. So that's, that's interesting. So I think that that's doable. I think the cream for a lot of guys is much more doable than injections because some people just start needle-phobic
Jay Campbell:
Phobic. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And by the way, it's a good point. Um, a lot of guys don't like to do the injections because of the travel, right. If you're a businessman and you're traveling all the time, but you know, get your doctor to get you preloaded syringes, put them in the bottom of your hygiene bag, take one or two a week. You know, obviously I want you to do twice a week to three times a week injections, if that's how you're going to do, um, by it. But it's simple. I've been traveling across the globe for 14 years with shots. I've never once ever had a problem, but you're right. I mean, a lot of men are needle-phobic, there's no doubt about it. So
Dr. Shah:
I think there's a lot, a lot of good stuff here. And I think that's, um, you know, for me, it's, it's a lot of the stuff I do is very visual, I think. And sometimes the visual kind of correspond to how they feel and that, um, a lot of the stuff you do is also visual and it's kind of building an that. And again, it's, it's going to have a direct correlation in that. And I think for, um, there's a reason why a lot of my male patients, um, if they have muscles, they feel pretty darn good about themselves. Yeah,
Jay Campbell:
Of course. Absolutely. I always say that by the way, I always say, I always say, if you are depressed or despondent or wherever you're in your life, go to the gym three to four days a week, figure out what you like to do and just do that for six months and your whole life will change. There's no doubt about it.
Dr. Shah:
And I think, um, sometimes it's about keeping it simple and say, Hey, guess what? Work on that. And then, um, exactly. And then for some of us it's like, okay, I want to work on these other other features. So I think this is super enlightening information. I mean, this is amazing stuff. Um, your book, um, I read Jack to your first one, the testosterone Bible, which I read cover to cover is an awesome book that helped me. And, um, I think this, uh, the new book living a fully optimized life, I think that this book, um, uh, I think we're going to hopefully get a lot of people reading this, doing that because, uh, for me it's about living a full, full life. And however we want to live that portfolio life, we all have different answers and I think that people who've lived it who've been in, um, that part.
Dr. Shah:
And, um, there's so much knowledge that we can get from you. And from this, I think that, um, uh, you know, living in that world that I know that it's good not to just have to say, Hey, guess what? I'm the testosterone guy. I've gotta be on that. And I think there's more about fasting on that step and you talk so much there and we can talk a little bit for five hours about how to make, um, optimize our life. But I think that I've got so much, uh, impro here, including changing my shower like tonight, literally.
Jay Campbell:
Well, listen, man, I truly appreciate you having me on, um, I will definitely send you a copy of the book. I actually have the first paperback copy. I didn't use Amazon for this book because I just didn't want to anymore. I have my, my, my, uh, my feelings about dark, uh, Jeff Bezos, but, uh, I do have the first paperback coming. So as soon as I get it and I can sign off on it, I'll send you a copy. I'll just email me. I mean, I'll, I'll mail it to you. We can just exchange your mailing address and I'll send it to you. But, uh, I I'll also send you the PDF, but like I said, I happy to give away the books, the fasting book, uh, and also the tot Bible I just give away for free. Also you have to do is just send me an email and send my team an email it's contact@totrevolution.com. Um, you know what, every now and then my wife was actually just there six weeks or seven weeks ago, her son graduated from Navy bootcamp and now he's in Annapolis. So she was back there. Uh, it's been a couple years, but I used to go to the windy city all the time.
Dr. Shah:
Okay, cool. Cool. Well, uh, hopefully when you're Chicago, we can do something, maybe work out together and
Jay Campbell:
That'd be awesome. I would love if anything, we can break bread, have a dinner or something.
Dr. Shah:
That's the one too. All right, Jay. You're awesome. Thank you so much. Um, and hopefully I see you soon. Yeah,
Jay Campbell:
For sure, doc. I appreciate you. Alright,
Dr. Shah:
Cool. Thank you.
Jay Campbell:
Okay. Take care.